Apr. 29, 2024
(TechnicalUser)
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18 Jun 09 04:46ALL THE TIME! I find it very useful!! It works for me...
....JIM....
(Vendor)
18 Jun 09 07:09I second that... Cat3 is the PREFERRED voice cable.
Mike
(MIS)
(OP)
18 Jun 09 08:57only reason i ask is that i just placed a bid for a job, 1 cat6 and one cat3 to each location. they were a little displeased that i chose cat3 for voice, and insisted on using cat5. I have not done any prewires in quite a while and just decided to get back into it. I didnt know if cat3 was obsolite. i am not going to argue with a customer, if he wants cat5 thats what he will get. is there any benefit to using cat5 over cat3? only thing i can think of is that the can use voip if they go that route in the future.
also, when using cat5 for voice, a customer can plug in the rj11 jack into rj45 jack. does this mean that 1 pair of the cat5 is not being utilized? would i have to not connect those lines to mu block in the phone room?
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 09:12Quote:
also, when using cat5 for voice, a customer can plug in the rj11 jack into rj45 jack. does this mean that 1 pair of the cat5 is not being utilized? would i have to not connect those lines to mu block in the phone room?
I usually use 3 for voice alsoas a "cable pro' you need to educate your customerif they go VOIP it will use the network drop and the voice drop will be unused.there is absolutely no advantage of 5 over 3 for voice applicationswhy 6 for data ?we pull 5e unless the customer specs 6(I hope your increasing your bid for the extra time needed to termiate the Cat5 voice )I would still punch all 4 pair down I really hate to see a bunch of untermited wire around a blockdefinite sign of a "hack" job
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 10:33I haven't run any cat3 in at least 8 years. Don't see the point. The materials cost difference between 3 & 5e is minimal but the labor cost is the same for much less bandwidth.
If they want 66 blocks and 6p4c (RJ11) jacks use those with cat5e. Leave a service loop in the wiring closet so the 66 blocks can be replaced with a patch panel in the future. Or just use 110 blocks that can handle both voice and data for the voice wiring.
I can't imagine why anyone would still be installing cat3.
(MIS)
18 Jun 09 10:53If you want to use the cable later for Voip then CAt5e is the ticket. Its just a matter of time CAT3 will be history.
(MIS)
(OP)
18 Jun 09 12:02so when i used to use cat3, i would wirean external phone box. what would i use for the cat5? all i can find online is a male to female adapter. so i would have to terminate the cable with an rj45 plug and have a couler on it?
is this right?
i figured there might be an external female jack
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 13:43"i figured there might be an external female jack "
There is, just not one piece parts like you are used to. A wall mount cat5 compliant jack will consist of a surface mount box, a faceplate and a jack module.
You can use whatever jack you want just don't run cat3 since the cost difference is little and the bandwidth is even less.
In a perfect world you would terminate the voice runs to cat5e standards but I would rather have good cables with bad terminations than crappy cable...
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 14:31At least I won't have to worry about some data nut taking my CAT3 for a computer!
CAT3 is not going away any time soon! Just look at the Belden catalogue! They still make cables from the 1950s. If there is a need, they will make it!
....JIM....
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 15:55"CAT3 is not going away any time soon! Just look at the Belden catalogue! They still make cables from the 1950s. If there is a need, they will make it!"
They still make tires for the Ford Model T. Just because someone makes something that is NO reason to use it on a new install.
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 15:57[quote]I haven't run any cat3 in at least 8 years. Don't see the point. The materials cost difference between 3 & 5e is minimal but the labor cost is the same for much less bandwidth.[/quote[
so what does the phone system do with the "extra bandwidth "
absolutely nothing that's what
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 16:06"so what does the phone system do with the "extra bandwidth ""
You are assuming that analog phones are the future, they are not...
I would not like to be standing there explaining that to save less that 40% on materials I ran obsolete wire.
(IS/IT--Management)
18 Jun 09 16:22I am in a little different position than most of you so I am going to throw a wrench in the works. (So to speak)We still use all 5E for data and Cat 3 for voice.I maintain our telephone system (Large Avaya) and I have played around with VoIP. I have no use for it on campus. No cost benefits for IP vs. TDM at all other than long distance service. But I may have some use for it on buildings off-premise.The other side of my operation is we do 99% of all the cabling on and off campus.If and when someone higher up decides that VoIP is a must, then they will pay me to recable the complex. But with the current administration, i will not have that problem.
When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?
For the best response to a question, read FAQ690-6594: How to ask the best questions and site policies
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 17:19Quote:
You are assuming that analog phones are the future, they are not...
I would not like to be standing there explaining that to save less that 40% on materials I ran obsolete wire.
so why 5 why not 6 or 7 ?
(Vendor)
18 Jun 09 19:30Just to clarify my reply... Cat 3 is remains a viable solution for dedicated voice. That said, we rarely use it simply because it is easier for us to stock just cat5. And our cost for cat5 is lower than cat3. On new projects we will often run two "cables" - both cat5 that can then be patched to voice or data as the need arises. This model has served our customers well.
Mike
(TechnicalUser)
18 Jun 09 21:02"so why 5 why not 6 or 7 ?"
Because there is no compelling application that requires either.
Like mforrence says there essentially is no cost difference between cat3 and cat5 cable. At most the price difference I could find was 40%. These cost figures don't hold up for cat6 or cat7.
It seems that by insisting on cat3 you are cutting corners that don't need to be cut. Labor is expensive, cable is cheap.
(MIS)
(OP)
19 Jun 09 01:57anyone have a link to rj45 external jacks that i can place under the desk of a cubical...not for inwall
(TechnicalUser)
19 Jun 09 10:57 http://www.google.com/search?q=Cat5+Surface+Jack(TechnicalUser)
19 Jun 09 21:16I use CAT3 for dedicated voice.
If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet.
(TechnicalUser)
19 Jun 09 21:52Last I checked, my cost was half for cat3 vs cat5e cable and about 25% less for jacks which adds up for 2 voice jacks per cable. I think that when cat3 is "useless" cat8 will be out by then. I do more engineering and large installs and only cable new buildings to appease customers (not because I like doing cabling) but if we were to cable cat5e voice "with a service loop" just waiting for the day to say we saved you all this money 5, 8, 10 years later......I just don't think that is realistic. i think you could sell that to a customer but I doubt technology will play out like that (but we're all just guessing right).My best guess - cat 3 voice dies 5 to 10 years from now if ever. The lifespan will probably be about the same as when cat5E/cat6 dies for data. The solution 5 to 10 years away may be to:1. abandon the cat3 voice already in place.2. then use the existing cat6 for 1GB VOIP/Video3. then pull new cat8 for the 100GB dataIf technology continues the way it had been going, maybe a single strand of fiber will be here in 5-10 years and cat3/5/6/8 is all useless. I don't see any definite migration paths outlined to justify adding any expense to cabling cat3 for voice.
-CL
(Vendor)
19 Jun 09 22:06OMG the Cat 3 vs. Cat 5e debate again!
If it's PLENUM, then I use 3 for voice based on cost. If it's PVC, then it's all 5e. I have not bought or sold any Cat3 PVC in at least 3 years, although the great "I need black cable from China" experience fell flat on its butt when I read the sheath. (200 MHz cable).
Next up: The 66 vs 110 argument.
LkEErie
(TechnicalUser)
19 Jun 09 23:03Didn't we beat that into the ground a while back?
If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet.
(TechnicalUser)
19 Jun 09 23:18And don't forget about B-I-X!
Belden now has BIX in their catalogue since acquiring CDT a couple of years ago...
We now have quite a rainbow of choices from which to pick!
....JIM....
(Vendor)
20 Jun 09 00:34We did beat that into the ground. I still opt for the finger wrap and solder blocks. LOL
If you want to learn more, please visit our website 50 pair cat3 cable.
(Vendor)
20 Jun 09 00:37Just in case http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1528880 Save some time here. BTW, where's the dead horse emoticon from the other board when you need it?LkEErie
(TechnicalUser)
20 Jun 09 21:02How long will Cat 3 be around? Who knows? The cable companys use coax to send the TV signal to your house but the telephone company up here started selling TV service comming to your home on just ordinary telephone cable on top of your telephone and with the DSL. Probably not even Cat 3.
(TechnicalUser)
21 Jun 09 00:11I know the 66/110 debate is an ongoing joke in this forum but did I miss a cat3/cat6 debate in the last 6/12 months? If there is one, post the link and the poster will probably find the answers he/she asked for. I may have missed it so seriously take no offense. Are there releavent links for this poster about pulling different cable types that can be added? Posting links like "cat3 vs cat6 sounds so much like 66 vs 110 vs bix or butter vs margarine, here's some links about butter" probably isn't helping anyone coming here for help on cat 3 cabling in a "cabling forum". Just saying, lets keep things on topic, that's all.
-CL
(TechnicalUser)
21 Jun 09 02:13Yeah, I remember that until about 10 years ago the cable guys insisted in running RG-59. They said RG-6 was only for satellites. That worked out real well for them...
Cable is cheap, labor is expensive.
(IS/IT--Management)
22 Jun 09 09:14I think I am a lot like you guys in the fact that I will sell you what ever you want. So if the customer wants Cat5 6,7, oh yeah, but heres what it is going to cost you.I am still paying about 1/3rd the cost for cat 3 for voice vs. Cat 5E for data. If one day someone tells me to install all Cat whatever for voice and data, then I'll be paid to do it.But if you install Cat? for voice and data then the voice drops should also be terminated on patch panels. (This of course is if you have room to place a rack.) Now your cost has went up on the install from $5.00 for a 66 block to $100.00 for a patch panel. Thats $95.00 per 24 (Not 25) cables. Oh but wait. Now instead of having a $20.00 back board to install 400 pair now you need another $120.00 7' relay rack to install the patch panels on.But this is all done for future proofing? No such thing in our business. We have all installed how many types of data cables?? But it was the newest, latest, greatest and would last forever. Guess not.So i think it all boils down to1. Give the customer what they want. You will get paid to "Future proof" their infrastructure.2. If you have any ideas that VoIP will be the best thing since dial tone, they yes install data cables for voice.3. Install what makes since for your application. Everyones is different.Now did I hear someone mention 66 blocks??
When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?
For the best response to a question, read FAQ690-6594: How to ask the best questions and site policies
(TechnicalUser)
22 Jun 09 10:08I have very few customers who tell me what they want .
they ask for a quote for voice and data and I provide one and do the work
i will certainly do whatever is requested but I will also provide my opinion
I have no intention of changing my voice cabling to anything other than CAT 3 unless the customer insists on something else in which case I am happy to provide it with the appropriate up charge in materials and labor
(TechnicalUser)
22 Jun 09 10:22Why is then when a VOIP company is going to lose the bid ,because the company has decide to stick with their existing system,and cable .because they do not want to upgrade to cat 5 or 6 cable for voice , the cat 3 is good enough to use for the VO(lan)P
So what is wrong with the cat 3 now and the 66 block
(IS/IT--Management)
22 Jun 09 11:05Apples and oranges, VOIP/ANALOG phone cabling.. if they want to use VOIP probaly better to go with Cat5 but to install lines that will be ANALOG only for the near future, not much reason to go above CAT3..
(MIS)
23 Jun 09 16:31Not to muddy the waters and set off a storm of 'nays' but CAT3 cable wasn't designed for analog voice. It was designed for 10Mbit/s data. Additionally it is still recognized as standard cabling by EIA/TIA (CAT5 isn't) and, as cvrbob says, is plenty robust enough for VoIP on a LAN. You can even do PoE with it.
If I still worked with cable I'd be pulling CAT3. Who wants to pay for 100 or 200 pair CAT5e riser cables anyway?
On a related note and since we're discussing acceptable VoIP cable: assuming at least some folks still don't have fiber into your building from the service provider, what do you think that VoIP is traveling out of your building to your WAN on? If it is even up to the CAT3 standard I would be astounded.
(TechnicalUser)
25 Jun 09 04:26Just a side note: the "CATEGORY" of category rated cables only applies to ETHERNET transmission!! Nothing else applies, and ETHERNET is not sent to telco on their copper outside plant.
....JIM....
(IS/IT--Management)
25 Jun 09 13:55Until Cat3 is no longer recognised by TIA/EIA, It's not obsolete.. Also, I don't beleive there are any RJ11 wires that even pass Cat3 so....
(TechnicalUser)
25 Jun 09 20:32RJ11 has nothing to do with CATEGORY OR DATA ANYTHING!!!
It is a wiring arrangement for tip/ring dialtone for 6-position MODULAR JACKS, specified in FCC Part 68.
....JIM....
(Vendor)
25 Jun 09 21:03All this time, I was wondering how you send duplex data of Ethernet down a single pair of wires of RJ-11LkEErie
(IS/IT--Management)
26 Jun 09 08:55ok maybe I should have just said phone lines using RJ11 to differentiate from ethernet cable...ya know, These
(IS/IT--Management)
26 Jun 09 08:57but then you all knew what i was talking about and just wanted to smart off..
(IS/IT--Management)
26 Jun 09 09:08@syquest
"RJ11 has nothing to do with CATEGORY OR DATA ANYTHING!!!
It is a wiring arrangement for tip/ring dialtone for 6-position MODULAR JACKS, specified in FCC Part 68.
....JIM...."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Right on.. so why use anything above Cat 3 for Voice cable?
(Vendor)
26 Jun 09 09:16Because then I only have to stock 4 types of wire in inventory instead of 6. Gives me more room on the truck.
LkEErie
(IS/IT--Management)
2 Jul 09 03:02One point that is being missed in this discussion is the whole notion of structured cabling. The EIA/TIA specs last I looked (10 plus years ago) specified two Cat 5 cables to each drop location. This allowed for the use of Voice, Data and Video.
Cat 5 specs allow for data transmission up to 125 Mhz, and 100m ethernet runs at 80% of 125mhz, so it runs at the ragged edge of the cable. If you run ethernet over Cat 3, which is perfectly acceptable, you will only get 10m ethernet.
The whole idea on Cat 6 is to extend the limited distance that 100m ethernet can run over cat 5, which is less that 100 meters.
I could be wrong on some of the facts I'm pulling from the old grey matter, but you get the gist of it.
So, voice over Cat 3, works perfect, I would use it today with no hesitation. But, if I'm wiring my business today, I would not short change myself by running Cat 3 in place of a Cat 5 drop, as the cost of labor to replace that drop far outways the cost to put it in the first time.
If I'm running a short cable in an equipment room for voice, I'll use whatever is handiest, as cat 5 has no appreciable benefit to Cat 3.
With VOIP, and the need for QOS, the need for that second cable to be CAT 5 starts to diminish, and the CAT 3 can actually make some sense.
BTW, as long as we are being coy with each other, that picture of the telephone cable with the clear tip on it is not technically an RJ11 cable. It does only have two connectors on it, as you can see. However, a true RJ11 cable, per the standards, has a blue tip on it, which defines it as a single pair, and an RJ11. an RJ14 has an orange tip and 4 conductors. We've lost our way over the years and accept lower cost goods that no longer meet the Standards. Its no different with CAT 3 and CAT 5, we use them to meet business needs, many times ignoring standards. Which allows us to debate their usage for 4-5 pages on this thread.
It's all terminology, that we mix and match to meet our communications requirements, but much of it is not fully understood, nor interpreted correctly. EIT-TIA standards can be a source of determining where the rubber meets the road so that everyone speaks the same language.
Sounds like a good subject for the geezer section on PBX2SIP.com
(TechnicalUser)
2 Jul 09 04:10RJ ANYTHING has nothing to do with cable! It is an abbreviation for REGISTERED JACK!! Do you see cable anywhere?
Yea, it's terminology all right, and it becomes meaningless and confusing, when bastardized and used incorrectly!!
....JIM....
(Vendor)
2 Jul 09 04:14pbx2sip, don't confuse the color code with the color of the connectors on the ends of base cords. Flat base cords have 2,4,6 or 8 wires in them, and since they are not paired they are in the colors of Green, Red, Black, Yellow, White, Blue, Orange, Brown. You pick the colors for lines 1-4 based on the number of wires in the cable, or they may be all the same color, a PITA if you're making a long cord because you either have to hope there's a ridge in the cordage, or run your thumb and finger down the length of the cable so you can keep the tabs down to reverse the wires.
Panasonic happens to use Green plastic for their 6p4c plugs, and someone like AT&T...Comspec?..uses blue plastic for something, but, all we ever use and buy is clear.
LkEErie
(Programmer)
2 Jul 09 14:29We run three Cat5 cables for each drop. Two for Data. But we split the one for voice. BL and OR pairs to jack A. GR and BR pairs to jack B. Two phones on one cable. Then a splitter can be used on each jack to utilize all four pairs in the cable if necessary (that happened once in the past eight yrs).
>****
(IS/IT--Management)
3 Jul 09 03:08In the early days of the RJ standards, phones actually shipped with color coded tips on their cords - blue had two connectors in them on pins 3&4, and a two conductor cord. There was also a 4 conductor cord, with 4 pins on 2-5 and an orange tip on them. A six conductor cord had a green tip on it. In later years they went to the clear color tip. That color scheme is defined in the standards, and you do run across cables like that now and then.
Syquest, your right, the RJ11 cable we commonly refer to has nothing to do with the RJ standards, any more than the tip or the jack itself, since RJ specifies the actually wiring specification. It's use has been bastardized for for about 3 decades now, hard to change what is generally accepted practices, even if they aren't correct.
Introduction
Ethernet cables play a vital role in today's digital world, offering high-speed and reliable data transmission. Category (CAT) cables have evolved over the years to meet the increasing demand for faster data transfer speeds, higher bandwidth capacities, and improved performance. This article will provide an overview of various Ethernet cable categories, from CAT 3 to the potential future development of CAT 9 and CAT 10 cables, highlighting their unique features and applications.
The Evolution of Ethernet Cables
The Future of Ethernet Cables: CAT 9 and CAT 10
Although there are no official standards or specifications for CAT 9 and CAT 10 Ethernet cables as of September 2021, researchers and manufacturers are likely exploring the development of higher category cables to address the growing demand for faster data transfer speeds and higher bandwidth capacities. If developed in the future, CAT 9 and CAT 10 cables would potentially offer even greater performance in terms of data transfer rates, frequency, and shielding compared to existing Ethernet cable categories. These advancements would be particularly relevant in high-speed networking environments, such as data centers and large enterprises, where rapid and reliable data transmission is crucial.
Conclusion
Ethernet cables have come a long way since the early days of CAT 3, with each new category improving upon the previous in terms of performance, data transfer speeds, and other characteristics. As technology continues to advance and the demand for high-speed and reliable data transmission grows, it is possible that we will see the development of even more advanced Ethernet cables, such as CAT 9 and CAT 10. To stay informed about the latest developments in Ethernet cabling technology, it is essential to consult reputable sources related to networking technology and data communication standards, such as the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) or the Telecommunications Industry Association (TIA)
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